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Tonight, I was out at The Abbey (which you must know I find tedious) to hopefully meet up with a funny, interesting guy I met online. Of course, he never showed up—at least while I was there. We probably just missed each other, and the meeting, in all fairness, was only tentatively planned.
Just as I was bagging, I ran into Drew, a guy who I started dating a little while ago after we’d met first at a birthday party, then after he asked for me to be invited to a Friday night hang-out in West Hollywood so he could really meet me.
I ended up hanging out with Drew tonight, but our chumming proved what I’d figured out a couple weeks ago: after two early dates with decent sex, it’s obvious now he’s not interested in me physically at all. Which is fine, but I wish he’d just say so.
At one point, we’d moved next door to Here (really, the name of that bar is constantly introducing road blocks to comprehensible language). While watching the moving throngs of people and pondering why I was somewhat disappointed that, with a record two possibilities in one night, I was not going to be getting any nookie of any kind, I asked Drew something. That question I now ask of anyone reading this. Yes, consider this the first Wren Forum Officially-Sanctioned Discussion Topic.
QUESTION: Would all this [hand sweeping over the scene at the bar] still happen if there were no sex?
My first answer would be, “No.” Certainly not this kind of mayhem. Drew also thought the answer was, in general, no.
In all honesty—and it’s pretty amazing that I’m able to get over my mental taboos and admit this here, in public—I would not have been there this evening if there were no possibility of having sex, either tonight or planting a seed for some in the future. No sex, I would not have even agreed to meet internet guy at The Abbey, opting instead to wait for a sane location where we could meet and see if things clicked in a non-sexual companionship kinda way. No sex, and I would not have gone with Drew to Here in hopes that he’d want to spend the night with me this time. No sex, I would have been in bed many hours ago!
Of course, socialization is a factor, but if you just wanted to hang with friends and get drunk with no possibility of getting laid, would bars be as popular and as important? I know since I don’t drink, my answer is skewed a certain way, but Drew drinks regularly, and he gave the same answer.
So what are all your thoughts? It’s fun to consider, and there are certainly no wrong answers.
Ready? DISCUSS!
SAMerican Revolution Expounded Thusly:
If there were no sex, then none of us would be here and there wouldn’t even BE bars. Ahhhhh-haaaaaa…….Hmmmmmm…….
Rodney Expounded Thusly:
I think that bars became the “standard” way for gay men to meet because of societal restrictions. After all, didn’t it all begin with Stonewall? Although it has changed somewhat in the age of “Will and Grace” with younger men and women have been able to come to grips with sexual identity in a somewhat “freer” social atmosphere (but, even “W&G” joked that it is changing again and it’s suddenly “in to hate gays again” – thanks to a dark “Christian” agenda in the US political structure). It’s certainly easier to meet a fellow gay person and “get together” with alcohol involved and inhibitions drop. Heterosexuals do the same thing in their bars. Or so I’ve heard. I never really ventured into one of those places…In most cities there aren’t a diversity of other places to meet. In the major cities in Kentucky – Louisville, Lexington – bars are it. I don’t drink either, so bars have always had limited appeal to me.
I do think it’s terribly sad that mankind (especially in America) has vilified same-sex love. And that’s what it is, basically; the need to love and be loved both emotionally and physically. I can’t believe rational creatures would choose bigotry and hatred over love and compassion. I guess it’s not in our genetic make-up.
Steve Expounded Thusly:
Just to assure everyone, my life has turned around in this regard: A homeless guy gave me eyes, and made a subtle kissy-face at me as he walked by the car I was in yesterday. So my love life is on the rise!
Anyway, ignoring Sam’s obvious, topic-killing logic (sheesh, you dork!), Rodney of course is right. Though straight folks do the same thing with the bars. Yeah, it’s definitely the way, if your proclivity is shunned by society, to meet others. But you should see the two bars behind my house every night. The Abbey and Here are a plate of Vienna sausages with toothpicks in them compared to those meat markets.
More thoughts! More ideas! And no more logic! (John is in Japan and probably won’t be able to join in. Such a bummer!)
Steve Expounded Thusly:
Oh, and when we don’t have someone to sleep with us, there’s this bizarre invention. It’s Japanese, of course.
Weho Mark Expounded Thusly:
I like to think of my favorite drinking establishments here in town as the equivalent of an English pub, where you can catch up with your friends or whoever happens to stop by, meet new friends, flirt as much or as little as you wish, blow off steam, decompress, etc. (The big ole gay Starbucks across the street functions in exactly that way, as does my living room sometimes, albeit without alcohol in the former case.) Admittedly, after 1am on a Saturday night, for example, the seeking and/or obtaining of sex clearly becomes the primary focus.
However, this certainly doesn’t apply to all of them. There are other establishments I frequent where I would certainly be mightily disappointed if I left without smooching a boy.
Steve Expounded Thusly:
I was just chatting about all this with someone online who reads but doesn’t post 🙁 and he brought up the English pub thing. Actually the foreign bar thing in general.
I thought of those movie bars, which actually exist outside of movies, where people sit in somber silence over short glasses of Drambuie (do people drink Drambuie?) and there’s less searching for sex than just forgetting about life.
Socializing is of course a big reason to go to a bar in the first place. Like I said. But if you COULD extract the sex out of it all, would there be mob scenes at bars? Or would the bar be more like the Starbucks? I have no idea!
chuck (he who reads and does not post) Expounded Thusly:
YES! I admit it ! I lurk and read your responses while eating buckets of chicken in a room lit by my computer screen.
But on the topic of bars, some places have become site specific to THAT, bars are clearly one of them. You’re not there to get to a good chat..You’re there to see and be seen. If you wanted to talk, there are other public spaces that are more appropriate for a good talk (say a place where others arent bumping into you, or where music isn’t playing so hard that you cant really think and you have to repeat yourself so many times that what you’re saying has lost all its significance to the conversation). The bar is the space that we have all designated for pickups whether you’re an active participant or not.
…now back to my bucket.
John Expounded Thusly:
Sitting here in Japan on our final press junket (the movie opens here on Friday) and I couldn’t resist weighing in on this topic.
First, I have to remark on it from the standpoint of a non-single man. It astonishes me, every time I think about it, that I have been with the same person for more than four years now. Moreso, as someone with a traditionally high sex drive, who used to go to bars SOLELY with the hope/expectation that something physical would happen (though it usually did not), I remain shocked every time I think about it that my relationship has followed a fairly expected trajectory and we have ended up in a place where sex is the exception rather than the rule. So, it’s pretty hard for me to put myself back in the mindset of being in the bar/club scene.
That said, my two cents: Yes, it would still happen.
Whether by design or circumstance or media influence or what-have-you, gay men are conditioned to believe that they must always try to be better than they are. Stereotypically, we (at least, those of us who haven’t settled into a semblance of “married” life) are led to believe that no matter how intelligent, successful, happy, good-looking or comfortable we are, we are never good enough.
Outside of sex, bars are where we get our outside cues about the “real world,” where we can compare what we see on TV or in Out magazine (you know, in those ads with the impossibly good-looking men touting the virtues of the latest HIV treatment) to what is in our own backyard. We compare ourselves, favorably or un-, to those around us. We leave feeling better or worse about ourselves, content that we are so much better than the shallow queers who hang out in bars looking for hookups; as victors who leave with the prize they have coveted since 10 p.m.; or as pathetic losers who can’t dress, act or bulk up properly.
The bars and clubs that are found in every gay ghetto in the U.S. (and around the world, as I’ve seen on my travels) serve the important social function of being barometers, letting us know we are are aren’t better than our peers, depending on our own mood. If we choose not to go to them, we can mock those who do; if we frequent them, we can mock the losers who spend their evenings reading books and talking with their (said deridingly) “boring, straight friends.” They are the mirror that reflect whatever we happen to be feeling about ourselves, our (shudder at this word) community or our own values.
“This” would happen without the sexual element, because, most of all, we’re men, and we always need to know we are (or aren’t) better than the other men out there. At least, that’s my view. Thoughts? Am I off base?
I do know I’m late for shabu-shabu, if nothing else.
Steve Expounded Thusly:
John sure is good with word’s ain’t he? Guess that’s why he’s in MARKETING. And he has very good points. While you could still accomplish some of that taking-stock in other venues, the bar is still the easiest place to do so. And of course, while there may not be any sex in this scenario, there’s still booze, and people are still goping to want to drink. Maybe they’d want to drink even more because there’s no sex! I think frustrated, inebriated crowds of gay guys would not be too welcome at The Olive Garden on a Thursday night.
Steve (who's calmness belies his giddiness) Expounded Thusly:
BTW, I did meet the funny, interesting guy. And it turns out her was at Here when I was. We simply missed each other.
I know people will ask, so I’ll say, yes, the date went well. I’m simply holding in my enthusiasm and my involuntary smile for now.
On the surface, there are two things that made me so happy immediately… He hates fish and tomatoes!
John Expounded Thusly:
So, that means you got some, huh?
Steve Expounded Thusly:
Due to happiness about the similarity of our culinary dislikes, and since this is all a frank discussion, I will reveal the answer to your question. Yes, I “got some.” However, it was a night based off the premise “nothing naked.” If that sounds like a pretty boring night, think again. Especially if the two folks involved find each other incredibly sexy. The imposed limitations turned out to be pretty great! Tension galore. And my GOD, to spend a night with a gay guy who was game for holding back was an awesome change. (I have to give him all the credit for the idea, too.)
I can’t believe I’m being so honest! About sex! Besides, this seems off topic, huh? What would have happened if we’d met up at Here instead? Maybe the same thing, maybe nothing, maybe too much…
Rodney Expounded Thusly:
I’m happy for you, Steve.
Edward Expounded Thusly:
It’s all about sex, ain’t it?
😉
Steve Expounded Thusly:
As a dog, Edward, you MUST realize that that’s true! WOOF!
Lucy Expounded Thusly:
What would he know? He’s fixed!
Steve Expounded Thusly:
Ah, so it must be that much more frustrating for him! Perhaps, though, it’s good for him. When he goes to the doggie bars, he doesn’t have to worry about sex at all and can enjoy those liver martinis he loves so much.
Edward Expounded Thusly:
I don’t drink.
Sorry, I ain't takin' no comments on this page. Deal, y'hear?